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Thread: Pitch Counts in IHSA

  1. #61
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    I wouldn't say this "devastates" 1A baseball, but it will have some ripple effects. I think 1A schools are going to have downsize their schedules. The other big issue will be multiple rain-outs and make up dates towards the end of the season, and in the post season. With a lack of quality arms, 1A coaches could throw their ace on a Thursday in a regional or sectional and then use him for an inning of relief on Saturday if they needed to finish out a game. With the mandatory days of rest coming in, there are going to be a lot of high scoring games. Get ready for 21-19 games, and don't even consider some games getting done in under 3 hours. Umpires better open up the zone if they don't want to be there all night, because there is going to be some pitchers that really struggle with the strike zone. Another question is what about the idiot coach that is losing that claims your pitcher has thrown 90 pitches, when you have him down for 60? By the way the rules are written you then split the difference and that kid is credited with 75 when he has only thrown 60! Who polices that? I can bet you the umpires don't want any part of getting in the middle of a pitching count squabble between coaches.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
    I wouldn't say this "devastates" 1A baseball, but it will have some ripple effects. I think 1A schools are going to have downsize their schedules. The other big issue will be multiple rain-outs and make up dates towards the end of the season, and in the post season. With a lack of quality arms, 1A coaches could throw their ace on a Thursday in a regional or sectional and then use him for an inning of relief on Saturday if they needed to finish out a game. With the mandatory days of rest coming in, there are going to be a lot of high scoring games. Get ready for 21-19 games, and don't even consider some games getting done in under 3 hours. Umpires better open up the zone if they don't want to be there all night, because there is going to be some pitchers that really struggle with the strike zone. Another question is what about the idiot coach that is losing that claims your pitcher has thrown 90 pitches, when you have him down for 60? By the way the rules are written you then split the difference and that kid is credited with 75 when he has only thrown 60! Who polices that? I can bet you the umpires don't want any part of getting in the middle of a pitching count squabble between coaches.
    Its the same coach that would try to cheat by lying about the pitch count that are the reason (they are the ones that probably over used their pitchers in the first place) for the pitch count in the first place. Some folks should just never be entrusted with our youth.

    And any umpire that would get involved with this situation is a fool. If the coaches cant play nice, separate them and toss them if needed.
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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by umpjong View Post
    Its the same coach that would try to cheat by lying about the pitch count that are the reason (they are the ones that probably over used their pitchers in the first place) for the pitch count in the first place. Some folks should just never be entrusted with our youth.

    And any umpire that would get involved with this situation is a fool. If the coaches cant play nice, separate them and toss them if needed.
    Boy, did you nail the entire thing in two paragraphs. Sadly, the IHSA had to step in because there are idiots coaching baseball in some places.

  4. #64

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    I think the pitch counts are a positive step but this year it could be tough especially for smaller schools as schedules were set before the new rules went into effect. I think it would probably have been better to give schools a year notice before putting it into effect. For 1A and small 2A schools finding enough pitching could be an issue and could impact fresh-soph schedules if pitchers have to be brought up to fill varsity innings. It will also make the traditional Saturday double headers very hard to play going forward. I would think most small schools will limit themselves to 3 games a week max. This could also make rescheduling of conference games hard as many schools won't be able to play 4 or 5 games in a week.

  5. #65

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    We have always tried to be very careful with our pitchers, but every individual is different. We have had kids who just lob the ball and never have arm problems, then again we have had ones that need several days of rest after throwing. I have a feeling this will have very little to do with stopping arm problems at the high school level. Guess we'll just have to see what the results show. One thing that no one is taking into consideration is that almost every pitcher now goes to pitching lessons. Who knows what is going on and how many pitches these guys are throwing in a session. Not everybody has the same arm slot, and everybody is in the cookie cutter mode these days. That could contribute to the arm problems today as much as anything
    Last edited by oldgreen; 03-13-2017 at 12:39 PM.

  6. #66

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    Brian Bebout pitched 7 innings in the 1989 2A state semifinal on Friday and then came back and pitched 8 innings on Saturday in the state championship game. Not sure if his left arm is still attached to his body or not.

  7. #67

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    just yet another example of the pussification of the us of a.

  8. #68
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    I went to a small school. We had 2 pitchers and if you started, you finished. I pitched 28 innings in 7 days my senior year. 1 of my brothers pitched 7 innings on Friday, then followed it up with 7 innings on Saturday morning in the first game of a tournament. Our oldest brother started both games of a double header and pitched 13 consecutive innings (9 inning loss in game 1 followed by the first 4 innings of game 2). In legion ball, we played 3 games in 1 day. I threw the first game, played 2nd base the 2nd game, and came on in relief in the 3rd game.

    None of us had the ability to do anything other than pitch at the small college level. However, our arms were garbage by then and it hurts to play catch with our kids. All 3 of us wouldn't trade those days for anything and we wanted the ball each time out. Small schools are at such a disadvantage due to depth. Also, it is tough to find many coaches/teachers at the small school level that know baseball and pitching. Could I have not taken the ball and got a few days rest? Sure, but I didn't want to potentially lose knowing we were throwing someone out there that wasn't as good as me at 60-70% just to get me a day off.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by LHS 2004 View Post
    I went to a small school. We had 2 pitchers and if you started, you finished. I pitched 28 innings in 7 days my senior year. 1 of my brothers pitched 7 innings on Friday, then followed it up with 7 innings on Saturday morning in the first game of a tournament. Our oldest brother started both games of a double header and pitched 13 consecutive innings (9 inning loss in game 1 followed by the first 4 innings of game 2). In legion ball, we played 3 games in 1 day. I threw the first game, played 2nd base the 2nd game, and came on in relief in the 3rd game.

    None of us had the ability to do anything other than pitch at the small college level. However, our arms were garbage by then and it hurts to play catch with our kids. All 3 of us wouldn't trade those days for anything and we wanted the ball each time out. Small schools are at such a disadvantage due to depth. Also, it is tough to find many coaches/teachers at the small school level that know baseball and pitching. Could I have not taken the ball and got a few days rest? Sure, but I didn't want to potentially lose knowing we were throwing someone out there that wasn't as good as me at 60-70% just to get me a day off.
    This pitch count rule is basically limited to the really good pitcher (college aspirations)at a small school or bad team with 1 good player. If I'm wrong, you're lying.

    Dad doesn't want his arm thrown off by a coach, hence the rule.

    Most 2A-4A schools have plenty of pitching and smart enough coaches.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by toppercoach View Post
    This pitch count rule is basically limited to the really good pitcher (college aspirations)at a small school or bad team with 1 good player. If I'm wrong, you're lying.

    Dad doesn't want his arm thrown off by a coach, hence the rule.

    Most 2A-4A schools have plenty of pitching and smart enough coaches.
    I'm not saying I don't disagree with the rule or a form of the rule. I'm saying small schools will have a tougher time with this due to numbers and abilities of the players they have.

    I just don't understand with all of the strength training and advances in technology that we have, why are arm injuries so much more in your face? Look at innings pitched and number of starts in the Majors over the past 40 years. Look at the specialization of set up men, closers and long relievers yet we have to shut pitchers down due to injury or risk of injury.

    I do not think it is the high school level alone. It is the year round travel teams and select squads. Kids are playing 100 games in a calendar year with practices in between. Many of these kids pitching are the best players on their teams so they play shortstop or something on days they don't pitch. That's a lot of throwing PERIOD. When the baseball season was over, you spent a few months off and didn't throw in the winter much if any.

  11. #71
    Plus Member Sikula's Avatar
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    A bunch of rain keeps any concerns on a pitch count with being a problem (so far).
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  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by LHS 2004 View Post
    I'm not saying I don't disagree with the rule or a form of the rule. I'm saying small schools will have a tougher time with this due to numbers and abilities of the players they have.

    I just don't understand with all of the strength training and advances in technology that we have, why are arm injuries so much more in your face? Look at innings pitched and number of starts in the Majors over the past 40 years. Look at the specialization of set up men, closers and long relievers yet we have to shut pitchers down due to injury or risk of injury.

    I do not think it is the high school level alone. It is the year round travel teams and select squads. Kids are playing 100 games in a calendar year with practices in between. Many of these kids pitching are the best players on their teams so they play shortstop or something on days they don't pitch. That's a lot of throwing PERIOD. When the baseball season was over, you spent a few months off and didn't throw in the winter much if any.
    I disagree with the rule. I was saying that's why the rule came about IMO.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikula View Post
    A bunch of rain keeps any concerns on a pitch count with being a problem (so far).
    Yes and no.

    When these teams start making up these games, a number of schools could be looking at five games in a week and that is definitely going to make it difficult for teams with limited pitching.
    I've already seen a few schools in my area decide to NOT make up a non-conference rainout because of concerns of the pitch-count rule.

    Personally, I think this is long overdue. While I believe the majority of high school coaches (at least 90 percent) do what is right for their athletes, this rule is to keep the minority from doing some stupid stuff that I've seen.

    In my baseball past, I had a good friend throw more than 175 pitches in a 10-inning game. He couldn't wipe his own ***** the next day. Now, he was a competitor and it would have been nearly impossible to take him out of a 1-1 game, but looking back on it, I wish it would have been done.
    That was before all of these showcase events, which I agree adds to the stress.
    A close friend of mine has a son that is a big-time prospect in another state. They have established a program where his son pitches for his high school team in the spring and for a travel team during the summer. From September to December, the kid isn't allowed to throw a pitch. Now, he still works out and he runs about 15-20 miles a week. This past fall, he ran on the school's cross country team.
    During the winter, he plays basketball as a 6-foot-3 shooting guard. And starting Jan. 1, he begins a throwing program on Sundays. Going from some light-toss stuff at first, to some long-toss and eventually he will begin a program where he throws 20 pitches right around the end of the month.
    By the end of the basketball season, he's up to around 60-75 pitches.
    Last edited by Fritzgerald; 04-01-2017 at 04:04 AM.
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  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fritzgerald View Post
    Yes and no.

    When these teams start making up these games, a number of schools could be looking at five games in a week and that is definitely going to make it difficult for teams with limited pitching.
    I've already seen a few schools in my area decide to NOT make up a non-conference rainout because of concerns of the pitch-count rule.

    Personally, I think this is long overdue. While I believe the majority of high school coaches (at least 90 percent) do what is right for their athletes, this rule is to keep the minority from doing some stupid stuff that I've seen.

    In my baseball past, I had a good friend throw more than 175 pitches in a 10-inning game. He couldn't wipe his own ***** the next day. Now, he was a competitor and it would have been nearly impossible to take him out of a 1-1 game, but looking back on it, I wish it would have been done.
    That was before all of these showcase events, which I agree adds to the stress.
    A close friend of mine has a son that is a big-time prospect in another state. They have established a program where his son pitches for his high school team in the spring and for a travel team during the summer. From September to December, the kid isn't allowed to throw a pitch. Now, he still works out and he runs about 15-20 miles a week. This past fall, he ran on the school's cross country team.
    During the winter, he plays basketball as a 6-foot-3 shooting guard. And starting Jan. 1, he begins a throwing program on Sundays. Going from some light-toss stuff at first, to some long-toss and eventually he will begin a program where he throws 20 pitches right around the end of the month.
    By the end of the basketball season, he's up to around 60-75 pitches.
    THIS^^^^

    That is how it is suppose to be done for pitchers. You don't touch a baseball for 2-4 months and start back at it easy. You have to take a break and do something else.

    2 biggest things leading to all these arm injuries are playing year round (I like to call it specialization in one sport) and learning other pitches such as curveball (more for this is starting to early to throw it), slider, and etc. But the year round baseball is what has led to increase in injuries.

    James Andrews quote on curveball, "My rule of thumb is, don't throw the curveball until you can shave, until your bone structure has matured and you have the neuromuscular control to be able to throw the pitch properly."

    http://http://files.leagueathletics..../5402/7811.pdf

    Page 8 shows you when the pitcher should learn to throw different pitches.

  15. #75
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    Do they need an official pitch counter at games. I would do it for a nominal fee.

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